747 Complexity

Even 'intelligent designers' need evolution.

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But the Wright Bros still

But the Wright Bros still created it. What they didn't do was start with a freight train and come up with an airplane.

I'm not supporting ID but come on, you gotta do better than that if you're going to refute ID. The point is that "something" had a beginning and no one can even fathom how that happened, mechanistically speaking.

Straw arguments, you are

Straw arguments, you are missing key points.

Not straw arguments. Steve

Not straw arguments. Steve has a point. Every chain of events described had an initial design. There is always a first cause. Then subsequent design changes. Still hard to get away from design in the examples given.



Maple seeds.

Maple seeds.

Well, even the Wright

Well, even the Wright Brothers, to create had to have a long history of evolved thinking and inventions behind their artifact. And of course, ID and evolution examples are not restricted to artifacts. Go to arts for instance. Can you create a van Gog in the middle of a desert? Maybe, but it will be hard if you don't have a history of painting artists in place. Back to artifacts, now a scifi scenario. Remember in '2001 an Space Odyssey', one of the human ancestors touching the monolith, a surface completely different from anything in their environment, resulted in a chain of ideas ending in the use of a bone as a tool. It changed the life of all members of the tribe (unfortunately, it was probably the first tool also used to commit a 'homicide') and from there to a spaceship. But the aha! moment came through an evolution of ideas, monolith to the bone in this case. The monolith itself is portrayed as created by an alien intelligence (no supernatural forces here, please) but it could have been anything created by a natural accident resulting in something unusual, which for any curious and imaginative brain is a source of novel ideas. The aha! moment occurs all the time but for that to happen the brain needs to have a connected string of previous information. No invention is created by someone just staring at the skies (however, that might happen if a cloud with some unusual shape makes the brain connect the string of information it has previously acquired and worked out). We came a long way and still have a long way to go, if our evolution is not interrupted by our self destruction. Great analogy on evolution in this article!

The Wright Brothers didn't

The Wright Brothers didn't invent the airplane, they copied it from others (Otto L, JJ Montgomery, Leonardo, etc) who developed their designs from the naturally evolved mechanisms used by birds and other flighted organisms. There are two things in the universe that appear able to generate functional "designs" - 1) random chance paired with selection, which can create self-replicating codes capable of ever-increasing efficiency and efficacy, and 2) extremely complex information processing systems such as brains and computers capable of generating novel pattern-matching models (hypotheses) and sorting them (selecting them) on the basis of predictive value (efficiency and efficacy). But only one of these two things is capable of generating the other one, and that is the former - evolution. Our ability to design things is both a product and a mirror of its origin.

You guys crack me up... Stop

You guys crack me up... Stop looking so hard... the answers are all easily available once you open yourself to accept them.